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xichg -

However 'laowai' alone doesn't mean to insult. You have to put 'damned' before it to have
insulting effect. For the word 'chink', it's insulting by itself. That's the difference between
them. 'laowai' is neutral while 'chink' is not.

And how about other things I wrote in my post? I would like to hear your detailed analysis on them
too, as what you did on the 'chink' = 'laowai' point.



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赫杰 -

I did not address the other things you wrote in your post, because the comment you had on chink
and laowai was the only thing I saw when writing my reply, you then apparently edited your post...

But no matter, I will address the other points; I have been wanting to discuss this subject in
English for a while, haha



Quote:

However 'laowai' alone doesn't mean to insult. You have to put 'damned' before it to have
insulting effect. For the word 'chink', it's insulting by itself. That's the difference between
them. 'Laowai' is neutral while 'chink' is not.

I agree one hundred percent with you, laowai by itself does not mean an insult, unlike chink, and
the difference lies therein. Again I will say I only equated them for the purpose of the scenario
I created specially for you (being from china), but you are absolutely right, chink is a very bad
translation of laowai.

Now I think we agreeing on one thing: this is relative, for it all depends on context, as you and
I have both said, right? So yes, I take back my comment, and apologize to you, for saying that
laowai is not neutral or positive.

However, because this is relative, this means that it can be what it wants to be for various
people. All I wanted you to see is how it can be negative. Because in my experience, though I am
not Chinese, and I have only been here for one year, the usage of laowai was being used mostly in
the negative. Of course, to you it is something neutral or positive, I am sure you don't put cuss
words in from of laowai and make fun of laowai, or even hang out with friends that do these kinds
of things. No, you probably use it and view it in a positive and/or neutral sense. And again just
to show how relative this term is to people, I used to bring news articles using the term laowai
to my Chinese teachers, we would all agree that these articles and the tones of such articles were
written in a somewhat disrespectful way to foreigners, furthermore, I had one teacher tell me how
much she does not like the term laowai.



Quote:

It's just like 'foreigner' is a neutral word, but 'damn foreigners' is not neutral at all, but
it's not the word 'foreigner''s fault.
You are not alone in having bad experiences. The other day I was walking on campus, and some girl
walking behind me just shouted at me 'fucking Asians'. Should I blame the word 'Asian'?

Well said. Im sorry you have to put up with that. Of course not, of course you should not blame
the word 'Asian'. But as a side note, I know many 'Asians' that take offense to use of the word
Asians, to me indicating its similar relativity.

Now allow me to create yet another scenario to help you understand why some foreigners feel like
this: imagine a word similar to Asian in meaning, yet somewhat hard to define exactly, let's call
it "asianite". And yes you hear someone say to you "Hey! Asianite! Fuck you man!", now imagine
hearing that almost daily from lots of people, but then, for some reason, you also encounter daily
the word "Asian" but in somewhat more respectful tone, then sometimes you encounter the word
"asianite" in the media and newspaper, but with no cuss word attached to it, and even sometimes
people calling out to you "Hey! Asianite!" just to get your attention.

I ask you, in this scenario, would "asianite" not sound negative to you, no matter what the
context? And when people use "asianite" to call your name, would you not say to yourself. "The
hell? Why not just say Asian? Why must you use this "asianite" name to call me out?"

Yes, you can then say to yourself: "o! perhaps this is an instance where "asianite" is not
negative" BUT, then you say to yourself: "This does not make sense, up to now, I have seen
"asianite" almost entirely in the negative and have seen it a lot, surely the person calling me
this name must know that I may find it offensive? Is it so hard to just use "Asian" instead?"

so you see, if you substitute "laowai" for "asianite" and "waiguoren" for "Asian", this is a train
of thought a "laowai" might have in china, thus to me "hello" does not equal "laowai." again, this
why I gave you the laowai and chink comparison (even though chink is a terrible translation of
laowai), because I bet you would be more pissed off if someone said to you "fuck you chink"
instead of "fuck you Asian", similarly, I would be more pissed off if someone said to me "fuck you
laowai" instead of "fuck you waiguoren"



Quote:

I think I can draw a parallel between my plane story and kids calling you guys 'laowai' on the
street. It's not the best behavior, and you have every right to feel offended and annoyed, but the
kids are not trying to be a jerk on you or trying to insult you

Yes, again well said, you think such behavior would stop after being a kid, no? Again, thank you
for your understanding and admitting it's not the best behavior. I know the Chinese are not trying
to be insulting when acting like this, but of course I find it insulting because I am not a "plane
in the sky", but a human with feelings. I guess I am just finding it hard getting used to be
treated like an object, and finding it hard to believe many Chinese do not consider these
feelings. But you know what? Again this is all relative, I have no idea how I would act if after
22 years I saw a black person for the first time. Who is to say how I would react?

Anyway I completely agree with you again, this will be much better as china becomes more open to
the world and to foreigners. So yeah for now I will continue to just try to make the best of it.

HJ

ps I think I might send you a pm later about Chinese talking in front of foreigners about them,
and why they do this. Ok? Since that it is not really discussing the connotation of laowai.










mr.stinky -

i don't see it as insulting or degrading. i've been led to understand laowai simply means
furr'ner, including other asians. yes, it gets annoying that they stare and point and yell
hello, but what the hell, they're just chinese, right?

when the kids point and yell waiguoren, i just point at them and yell zhongguoren. when
they say laowai i take the opportunity to correct their pronunciation....especially the
older guys. (in km it comes out as louwei) tell 'em their accent is terrible, draw the
characters on their palm, and teach them the proper tones.










Qcash3 -



Quote:

I know the Chinese are not trying to be insulting when acting like this, but of course I find it
insulting because I am not a "plane in the sky", but a human with feelings. I guess I am just
finding it hard getting used to be treated like an object, and finding it hard to believe many
Chinese do not consider these feelings.

I think that this is really the underlying issue. I really don't belive it is the use of the word
'Laowai' as much as the feeling of being objectified. It is generally hurtful to have anyone talk
about you behind you back, but it is even more hurtful when someone is talking about you as if you
were a stray dog. To my knowledge I was never referred to as 'Laowai' when in China, but I did
have to get used to people talking about me as if I couldn't hear them, wondering if I was from
Africa or not....: The reason behind this was because they probably assumed that I couln't
understand what was being said, but never the less it was rude. While for the most part all the
attention that was payed to me was driven by curiosity and not spite, after a while it did become
tiresome when people stopped whatever they were doing and started whispering about the black kid
walking down the street. I understand that it is exciting to see a foreigner walking down the
street, but by no means does that make it OK to make the foreigner feel like the big red plane
overhead.










LFCLOUDS -

I used to hear the term every day about 5 - 10 times, on a really bad day it could have been as
much as 50.

It totally depends on who's saying it and how their saying it.

Its most often out of harmless surprise, but can occasionally be pretty vitriol saturated.

Have only heard it once since I came to Beijing in Feb, and that while I was cycling and I wasnt
really even in Beijing.

( it was harmless BTW)










md1101 -

i once saw a foreigner in china with a t-shirt where the front said "老外来了“
and the back said "老外走了“










Hero Doug -



Quote:


Originally Posted by Long Zhiren

This happens all over the world. For most cases, I think you have to give them the benefit of the
doubt and assume goodwill.

I'm ethnically Chinese and born in Indiana many decades ago. I'm a native English speaker. Chinese
is my third language. I still encounter Americans all over the US who say they're excited to see
(me) a foreigner, when I'm not! They mean it too. They're just a bit slow.


I give benefit of the doubt to people who do something innocent such as giggle, but I guess I just
have the habit of putting my self in the shoes of others (The golden rule). I'd never point,
laugh, or try to start a 3 sentence dialogue with someone who has already passed me by
condensendingly shouting foreigner or hello because I think it would be rude to do so.



Quote:


Originally Posted by 赫杰

Here in 武汉, I once had a Chinese woman actually spit on me and say 该死的老外, while
walking in the street, and for no apparent reason.


That's one of the worst I've heard of yet. Sorry to hear.



Quote:


Originally Posted by xichg

I grow up in a village and it's very rare to see an aeroplane. Let's say a group of kids were
playing in the fields and somebody spotted a plane flying overhead. The kid who saw that plane
would be extremely excited. He would shouted 'Feiji, feiji' while pointing his finger at the plane
to draw other children's attention. And then other children will gazed at the plane until it
became too small to be seen. Years later I still do that, saluting every passing plane and being
amazed and excited by it.


Did you laugh at the plane?

Not sure there's much left to be said, seem's to have been summed up. Thanks for the feedback.










imron -



Quote:

i once saw a foreigner in china with a t-shirt where the front said "老外来了“
and the back said "老外走了“

Haha, I have that t-shirt but you can't wear it in China. If you think the random "hello" and
"laowai" is bad, it's like a billion times worse if you wear that t-shirt in public. After the
first time I wore it, I got so sick of the extra attention and then explaining that yes I
understood what it meant, and that if they found the front of the shirt funny, wait until they saw
the back, that I've not really worn it much since.

I've got another one that says "没有钱" that I usually only wear when going to a market or
something. It's an instant ice-breaker with any merchant and the novelty of a Chinese speaking
laowai wearing this sort of t-shirt sets you up pretty good for getting rock-bottom prices.










mrtoga -

My tuppence worth.......

In my office we often get foreigners calling us. The Chinese staff that answer (they are
bilingual) will refer to them as 老外 when talking amongst themselves after hanging up the
phone. I would say it is very synonymous with "bloke" in English but less gender specific.

Seems to me it is a term that indicates familiarity and / or informality. Therefore in certain
circumstances it can be construed as being a little rude, but when I go for a stroll through the
market it bothers me not in the least. It is a very descriptive word and in the Chinese mind it is
associated with someone who speaks very poor or no Chinese. They are therefore shocked and amazed
when a 老外 replies in understandable Chinese (especially the little kids).

I do not appreciate 外国朋友. In my experience this has been used either by people that want
to separate me from my money, or by acquaintances that cannot be bothered to remember my real
name. If it is a tradesman I immediately move on. If an acquaintance I do not stoop to entitling
them 中国朋友 but make a point of addressing them by name.










roddy -



Quote:

I do not appreciate 外国朋友. In my experience this has been used either by people that want
to separate me from my money, or by acquaintances that cannot be bothered to remember my real name.

Oh yes. It's one of my pet hates. Being suddenly promoted to 'friend' by someone who can't be any
more specific about your nationality than 'well, he ain't Chinese, so I guess he's foreign.' I can
just about bear it when it's used to refer to foreigners in general, but when it's used to refer
to me specifically it never bodes well - almost always used by people who make a very nice living
by charging 'foreign friends' the 'foreign friend price', pointless 'leaders' who are delighted to
have some foreigners sitting at their table but see no reason to bother with inconveniences such
as names, and college students who 'want to help you understand Chinese culture' - specifically,
the 'get one over on your English teacher by getting a foreigner to say the answers in the book
are wrong' aspect of it.

Can be worse though. A few years ago I was accosted by some woman who wanted my phone number
because she was looking for a 小朋友 to learn English from. Tragically, I got the last two
numbers mixed up and never heard from her again.

Roddy












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