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nipponman -



Quote:


Originally Posted by yingguoguy

But da isn't generally considered to be a verb but the copula. It shows the tense and politeness
level of sentences when these are not indicated by the verb or (for tense only) the i-adjective.
Although it's usually translated into English at 'to be', it's not actually a verb and the English
rule that all sentences must have a verb isn't true in Japanese.


To linguists yes, but to most learners the distinction between a copula and a verb isn't that
visible/important. For example, in "He would be the first one to ask...", is "be" a verb or a
copula? The answer is a copula, does anyone care? Not really.



Quote:


Originally Posted by yingguoguy

My point was that it's bad practice to think of group 1 -i/eru verbs as being exceptional in the
sense of assuming that any -i/eru verb is in group 2 unless it appears on a list of a exceptions
that you've specially memorized, as it'll probably end up being quite a long list, and whenever
you hit a verb, you'll waste time trying to remember if it's on the list or not.
It's also, I think, a bad idea to memorize in the form (帰る is group 1),(食べる is group 2)
but rather (帰る、帰った,帰ります),(食べる,食べた,食べます), partly for the
same reasons it's bad to try and remember Chinese tones by their numbers, but mainly because it
speeds up most conjugating most forms. You shouldn't have to think about groups in conversation.


You are aruging from a learners perspective, while i'm arguing from a technical perspective, as
such we're both arguing over semantics. Fact of the matter is I agree that you shouldn't memorize
groups in that way, just be aware that they exist. I'm sure you must admit though, that the group
explanation works wonders for why 帰るconjugates differently than代える.



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yingguoguy -



Quote:

To linguists yes, but to most learners the distinction between a copula and a verb isn't that
visible/important. For example, in "He would be the first one to ask...", is "be" a verb or a
copula? The answer is a copula, does anyone care? Not really.

In the English language you're right, in fact I'll be honest and say I've not idea what copula
means when referring to English grammar. However when studying Japanese grammar one of my first
questions was "What going on with this desu then? Is it a verb or what?" One of the key moments in
learning Japanese is realizing the purpose of "de/desu" in a sentance, and why for example
"samukatta desu" and "samukunai desu" make sense and "samui deshita" and "samui ja arimasen"
don't, rather than just seeing them as arbitary rules.



Quote:

You are aruging from a learners perspective, while i'm arguing from a technical perspective, as
such we're both arguing over semantics. Fact of the matter is I agree that you shouldn't memorize
groups in that way, just be aware that they exist. I'm sure you must admit though, that the group
explanation works wonders for why 帰るconjugates differently than代える.

Sorry don't mistake my meaning, of course learners should be aware what the word groups are. When
learning a new verb you need these to calculate the various verb forms anyway. My meaning was
rather than working from the dictionary form and the group number to get the -ta form, you should
memorize the dictionary and -ta form and work backwards to get the group number, as and when you
need it.












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